Contendah Number Five: the 'Cuse
by Sam @ WWAHT on May 21, 2009 12:29 PM EDT
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D'awwwww
This blogger will have you know that before he decided to attend Ohio State, Syracuse was one of my final three. If I was going out of state, I was going to Syracuse. In the end, I stuck with my hometown school for financial and "loyalty" reasons. Syracuse would be an.... interesting Big Ten addition. It's located in upstate New York, it's roughly as prestigious academically as Ohio State, and it b rings a great basketball program into the fold and a *ahem* special football program as well.
Syracuse, being yet another Big East program, stands to benefit from a major upgrade in the form of the Big Ten's TV contract, which, as a reader politely pointed out, means beeg monayz for any team that isn't from the SEC.
Benefits for the conference
- Syracuse basketball would be yet another strong addition to the Big Ten's line-up, and would probably consistently be one of the top-3 teams in the conference
- Syracuse helps reel in the New York market, along with Penn State, which easily entices the suits making these decisions.
- Jim Boeheim, mostly because he did this and his wife looks like this. Coug!
Drawbacks for the conference
- The primary focus of this hypotehtical addition should, in my mind, be to bring Big Ten football back into the conscious of the sports world. Adding a rebuilding Syracuse program doesn't necessarily drag the conference down, but it doesn't move it forward in this department. Doug Marrone can't be too bad, can he? Dude's got a great twitter feed, that's for certain.
- On a similar note, while New York is the country's number one market, that's about all Syracuse gives you. It's a small school by Big Ten standards (roughly 19,000 students according to Wikipedia), so you won't be bringing in a particularly massive fanbase.
Could it happen?
I think that in the end, the Big Ten would mostly ignore the aforemention drawbacks. Syracuse is one of the premier basketball programs in the country, and adding Jim Boeheim to a stacked roster of coaches in the Big Ten would create a genuine media frenzy, and that's just what the conference will think it needs with this hypothetical addition. I'd like it, because I like Syracuse, I dig their SBN blog and Jim Boeheim kicks ass. What do you think? Would you like this addition?
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I'd like the Orange to be in an eastern conference that makes sense...
Of course, Penn State and BC would also be in said conference (say Boston College, Conneticut, Maryland, Penn State, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Virginia, Virginia Tech, West Virginia) so that’s very much wishful thinking.
Bottom line is that you probably don’t want us unless we get our football program straightened out (Mizzou is safer, Rutgers has more upside, Pitt has more tradition and is more firmly within Big Ten country), but if we do, but the Big East doesn’t get itself straightened out (certainly fixing its TV and bowl deals, and hopefully splitting), I’d probably come out for the move.
What about the Syracuse fanbase at large?
Do people generally seem lackadaisical about the state of the Big East? Do you think they’d support a move if they could keep the annual games against UConn (and perhaps Georgetown in basketball)?
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Really, we'd care a lot more about the Georgetown basketball game
There are really only strong internal football rivalries in the Big East among SU, Pitt, and WVU. And just maybe Louisville and WVU have something going due to some really good games just after Louisville joined the conference. But Rutgers was bad for too long for any of the other old hands to think much of them after only a few years of relative success, even if we suck now (Michigan doesn’t consider Indiana a rival in football, do they?), and the other guys are either too new to the conference or too new to I-A football, period. And despite PSU taking the 1990s and first half of the 2000s off from playing us, we’ve still played them more than anyone other opponent.
Odds are there’d be some grumbling, but if the Big East doesn’t do something about its major problems (too few football teams, too many teams for other sports, bad bowl deals and football TV contracts), the fanbase reaction would range from grudging acceptance to outright enthusiasm (me, I’d be able to bug my Ohio-based relatives when we beat you in basketball — which will usually happen — and they’d nag me back when you beat us in football — which will also usually happen).
Thoughts
First, Sam, I totally dig this series. I thought about doing something similar over at our digs, but I don’t think I would have done it this well, so, meh.
Anyway, I have a semi-unique perspective on all of this, as I grew up in New Jersey, and still get back there several times per year, but graduated from a B10 school and currently live in the Midwest (Chicago). Anyway, having grown up in the NYC media market, I have to say that I think it’s an absolute pipe dream that the Big Ten will “capture” that market, or even come close, by adding Rutgers, Syracuse, Fordham, Columbia, CCNY, or anyone else. NYC is a great pro sports town and a college sports wasteland. The various talking heads on WFAN, the big sports talk station, hardly ever discuss college sports, you’ll never see college sports on the back pages of the Daily News or the Post — there are too many other options that people already care far more about. For instance, check out the back cover of the Daily News on April 7 — the day after the national championship game, probably the most visible college sports event of the year. Who’s on the cover? C.C. Sabathia. In the NYC market, there are two teams each in the NFL, NBA, MLB, and three NHL teams. Each one of those teams have fan bases which far and away outstrip the audience interested in college sports. And yes, there is a substantial Big Ten alumni base in NYC, but as a percentage of the total population, it’s infinitesimal. It’s just not going to be a big deal regardless of who we bring in. The best we really could hope for is to get the BTN on the NYC cable systems; that’s not an unimportant, but if that’s all we get out of it . . . noooooooo thanks.
As for the two schools often mentioned, Rutgers and Syracuse, I really don’t think either of these schools are the ticket. Rutgers is a very good school academically, and it’s the right size, etc. But Rutgers has played D-1 football only since around 1990, and they’ve sucked very, very, very badly in each of those seasons except, like, two; Rutgers basketball is always somewhere between average and crappy. In any event, the RU alumni base sucks; school pride there isn’t very high (I know; I have tons of friends who went there, are huge sports fans, and couldn’t care less about RU sports), and there’s a substantial part of the alumni base which resents the fact that RU competes in big-time sports in the first place. There was a big, big uproar when they completed their big stadium expansion a few years ago; many thought it was outrageous that so much was spent on athletics at all. As it is, NYC media barely pays attention to Rutgers sports as it is; this would probably increase only marginally if they joined the Big Ten. In short, not worth it. Dear God, not worth it. My parents (also MSU grads) would enjoy this, because they could see us play every other year. But they’ll live.
Re: Syracuse. Apparently you already know plenty about it, but it is a private school — it’s Northwestern-ish in that its students come from all over the place, and disperse across the country after graduation in far greater numbers then your typical B10 state school grads do. There are lots of them who live in NYC, but not an overwhelming percentage. (I worked with a couple SU grads in DC after graduation; their college friends lived all over the country.) New York is a big state; Syracuse is almost 5 hours from NYC, so it’s not like the New York media covers SU as the “local” team as it is. They’d obviously be a great basketball get, and I think SU football will make it back to at least respectability within the reasonable future. But we’re not adding a school with a national following, a concentrated alumni base, or a huge media market. IMO, also not worth it.
Barring ND joining up, I think Pitt makes the most sense, followed by Mizzou. But honestly, if we can’t get ND, I’d prefer to skip it altogether. What happens when we take a 12th, and then sometime in the future, ND goes looking for a conference to join? We’d look like morons. They’re the only school which makes sense in every category, and I’d rather wait than settle for a school which ultimately adds little to the conference.
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Thanks. I'm thinking of revisiting it the next time any serious talk gets going
which will probably be around the time of the Big Ten meetings next year, natch. I think I’m going to go a little more in-depth that time around.
Re: the New York situation; I understand it’s an uphill climb and essentially impossible, but if the Big Ten can squeeze any more revenue out of the area, it will probably at least try. They will fail and everyone will expect it, but they’ll still try.
I honestly don’t think Notre Dame has any interest joining a conference this decade unless a truly unreal amount of money is thrown at them, and I don’t see that happening until they get their football program in order. If my worst nightmares are realized and Urban Meyer is the next head coach at Notre Dame, I could see it happening because a) they’ll instantly be a more competitive athletic team and b) the Big Ten needs another elite football program, which Notre Dame would quickly become. But, as I’ve said, I think we have a better shot at any of the other schools featured in this series as things currently stand. Notre Dame might be a tad too perfect.
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and Urban Meyer is the next head coach at Notre Dame
Wasn’t he offered the job before Weis?
If memory serves, he was and turned it down. Which means that it’s rather unlikely he’d abdicate his newly earned throne in Florida to rebuild the ailing Irish (despite his coaching roots).
Now that you mention it
He did, but scuttlebutt still indicates his "dream job" is Notre Dame. If they need to, Notre Dame could probably throw the GDP of multiple small countries at him. What supposedly caused him to choose UF was ND’s comparatively lofty admissions requirements for athletes, but now that he has seen Charlie Weis reeling in elite class after elite class, there’s a good chance his stance has softened a bit on that issue.
Notre Dame, even with its current talent, is a scary prospect under any coach marginally more competent than Weis.
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They lost to Syracuse under GRob
… therefore their talent has to be overrated. It’s just not possible to have as much talent as ND has in theory and lose to us. Ergo, they don’t really have that much talent.
I’d believe Marrone out-coaching someone, or Pasqualoni out-coaching someone (might be hard, but not impossible), but GRob outcoaching anyone other than Steve Kragthorpe? No way.
While I think ND's talent level might be marginally overrated
especially on the defensive side of the ball, they can’t all be college washouts. Can they?
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by Sam @ WWAHT on May 23, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Rutgers
But Rutgers has played D-1 football only since around 1990, and they’ve sucked very, very, very badly in each of those seasons except, like, two; Rutgers basketball is always somewhere between average and crappy
Rutgers has been in Division I football since there’s been a division I, and I-A/FBS since the I-A/FBS split in 1978. They just have been bad for almost all of that time, excepting the last few years. I’m not sure about Rutgers men’s basketball (their women’s team is another matter; they’re not UConn, but they’re really good); they’re not great, but unless you’re really good, you’re going to lose a lot of games in the Big East.
If the Big Ten is looking to get into the NYC Market...
Then I think Rutgers (if not, Syracuse) would be the best bet. Even though NYC is a big pro sports town, the local media has started to pick up on and take seriously Rutgers Football (I live right outside of NYC). Rutgers is a good school academically, about 30-45 minutes outside NYC, and has a fan base that right now is dormant, but could become more active if they were to join the Big Ten.
I remember a few years ago when some professors and students hated the idea of playing big time D-1 college sports (and spending millions of dollars on their football program), since Rutgers was originally invited to join the Ivy league. I think it would be a great compromise for the university, the professors and its fan base if they were able to get into the Big Ten. Having a large Big Ten alumni base in the NYC area (unfortunately living next to lots Michigan grads on Long Island) helps, and the academic reputation of Rutgers would go up as a result.
I'm not a fan of Syracuse joining
Seems too far out of Big 10 country, but that’s me. Yes, the basketball program would be an addition, but the Big 10 is a football conference, first and foremost. And it’s the football perception that is really lacking right now. The addition of Syracuse would just continue the current negativity.
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The distance argument is a bit silly
SU is closer to Penn State than Ohio State is. Now, if you think that means PSU really belongs in the Big East, I won’t disagree, but as long as PSU is in the Big Ten, there’s not much of a geography argument against the Orange.
Fair point
I poo-poo’d the geography argument when it was brought up in the Nebraska thread, so I guess I should be consistent.
Thanks for ruining my argument with solid opinions backed up by facts.
Damn you sir, damn you to hell. :)
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